Got good quotes? Q&A with journalist Jan Wong
Photograph by Jessica Darmanin, Maclean’s
“I startle them with unexpected questions. Or I tell them they’re boring. That often works.”
— Jan Wong on interviewing
Last week, I wrote about how you have to be somewhat of a shit disturber to make it as a journalist. Wow! The reactions were intense and hilarious. Old journalism friends reached out to me, laughing and reminiscing about the good old days of journalism. Old bosses reached out saying how much they enjoyed learning about my shit-disturbing ways. Social media slid into my DMs, thanking me for sharing my shit-disturbing tips.
But I knew there was ONE other journalist who must have been even more of a shit disturber than I was. That person is Jan Wong, who I adore on so many levels. For anyone my age or older, they will have remembered her “Lunch With” column in the Globe and Mail. She interviewed everyone from Suzanne Somers, Bryan Adams, and yes, Margaret Atwood, amongst dozens and dozens of others.
Everyone — and I mean everyone — who read newspapers read her controversial and entertaining “Lunch With” column.
Her column was turned into a book by the same name: Lunch With Jan Wong. The National Post reviewed her book of columns, taking into account the reactions she received and how she got interviews, and described Wong like this: “Her amused nattiness enrages some readers and excites others, but this is not just an attention-getting device. It seems to flow naturally from her, as much a part of her personality as her mischievous smile, her easy charm, and her admirable devotion to the craft of writing.”
As per her website, “When it comes to interview-savvy celebrities, Jan Wong’s skills as an award-winning investigative journalist prove invaluable: her tenacity in pursuing the stories that her lunch guests don’t want told, and her willingness to ask the questions no one else dares. This collection of over sixty of her funniest and most trenchant ‘Lunch With’ columns from The Globe and Mail include dates with Margaret Atwood, Don Cherry, Jeffrey Archer, Bryan Adams, Eartha Kitt, Jeopardy host Alex Trebek and Princess Diana’s butler Paul Burrell.”
(She’s also hilarious, as you’ll see!)
I reached out to Wong, wanting to know how she got the good quotes that got everybody talking (and still talking!).
You can buy her six books at any bookstore or online. Out of the Blue: a Memoir of Workplace Depression, Recovery, Redemption and Yes, Happiness — one of my favourite memoirs I’ve ever read in my entire life —is also available through her website.
Getting the good quote: an interview with the best interviewer, Jan Wong
RE:BOOKS: Everyone, including me, was a huge fan of your “Lunch With” column. You are also a brilliant journalist. Did you have to change the way you interviewed people for your column as opposed to covering a news story?
Jan Wong: Interviews have different amounts of access time — a running-after-a-sleazy-politician-down-the-street, a formal sit-down with a nun, a phone interview, etc. Different genres have different requirements — investigative, human interest, political, business. “Lunch With” had a built-in architecture, namely a single meeting built around a meal. It meant if we ordered appetizers, main course, dessert and coffee, so I had a lot of time. Lunch required a face-to-face meeting. No phoners.
RE:BOOKS: What were your first steps in getting people to talk to you? Did you need to reach out to publicists, or did you reach out directly to the person?
Jan Wong: Mostly publicists inundated me with offers. Sometimes I went after people I wanted, such as the woman who quietly adopted Joni Mitchell’s child years earlier. (The adoptive mother declined.) One of my first asks was with Peter Nygard, the fashion mogul who is currently languishing in jail, after being denied bail on charges of sexual assault and forcible confinement. It was easy to get an interview because he previously had only been the subject of puff pieces. I was the first reporter to ask about sexual assault and sexual harassment. He threw me out (we were having sandwiches in his office) before dessert. It took decades to bring charges against him.
RE:BOOKS: How did you choose who to interview? Was it your choice? If so, how did you know they’d make for a good interview? If an editor suggested you interview someone, what did you do before the interview. How much research do you put in BEFORE interviewing someone?
Jan Wong: I almost always chose my interviewees. Fame was a factor. Who could say no to Mickey Rooney, or Samuel L. Jackson, or Yo-Yo Ma? An interesting life was another factor — for instance, a beggar panhandled from a wheelchair at Yonge/College. Or a Christmas tree seller who had to live in a freezing trailer for a month while Torontonians picked over his wares.
I made mistakes, too. I turned down Andrea Bocelli about 10 minutes before he became famous. I walked around the newsroom asking advice of my colleagues. No one had ever heard of him. His publicist said only that he was a lawyer turned opera singer. For some reason, she didn’t tell me he was blind. Had I known that, I would have said yes immediately.
When Martha Stewart came to town, flogging her sheets and pots at Zeller’s, I booked a lunch. Then her publicist vetoed me. The Globe, to its everlasting disgrace, obediently a more compliant reporter. My first question would have been: “Why do you hire models for your garden-party magazine shoots — have you no friends?”
I do TONS of research beforehand. I watch their films, plod their terrible ghost-written autobiographies, and whip through stacks of clips. I look for hiatuses in their bios. I’m alert to the tired old quotes. I spot the unreported zones, which are often the most fertile. You simply cannot do the interview without hours and days of preparation.
RE:BOOKS: What’s your tip/advice for aspiring journalists to make the interviewee feel comfortable being interviewed, thus making them open up more? Did you praise them? What would be your tip on getting someone to open up?
Jan Wong: I put them at ease by being my naturally klutzy low-tech self. I fumble with my tape recorder. (ALWAYS tape; but rely on your notes to write; transcripts take too long.)
I sometimes pretend I need to borrow a pen. It helps to be short (5’-3”) and female. I don’t look threatening. I confess my own foibles to encourage them to divulge their own. No, I never praise them. They’re too used to sycophants.
Mostly I observe. I always order the same wine they do, and I don’t touch mine. When they finish their glass, I push mine over.
RE:BOOKS: Did you always have questions prepared? Were you open to seeing where the interview was headed, perhaps letting it wander off-topic, but in an interesting way?
Jan Wong: I prepare a rough set of questions. Sometimes I ask the toughest question first just to get it out of the way. But usually that’s not a good idea because it could ruin the mood. So I write the worst question on a yellow sticky note, and keep moving the note through my notepad as the interview progresses. And at the end, I wave the yellow sticky around, blame the tough question on my editor (ALWAYS BLAME YOUR EDITOR) and say: “I’m afraid I have to ask you this last question or my editor will kill me.” Works every time. (Except with Peter Nygard.)
RE:BOOKS: I think we are somewhat alike in this way. I notice details. What they’re wearing. How they speak. How they treat the waiters (small details that show a lot more about the person than their answers sometimes). Is this a skill that aspiring journalists should learn?
Jan Wong: It’s important to get down what they’re wearing, what their beard or hair looks like, the colour of their eyes. I do it overtly. I need to write everything down. I ask them the size of their jacket. I want to see the label. What brand of shoe?
The goal is to make the reader feel like they’re sitting at the table with you. Samuel L. Jackson, for instance, wears the 504 Kangol cap all the time. He owns dozens. They’ve named the hat model after him. So he removed it to show me, and when I remarked on his shiny pate, he let me feel how soft his head was.
Yes, watching how they treat the waiter is crucial because the first rule of journalism is “show, don’t tell.” You can tell a little bit what kind of human being they are by the way they treat someone who is of much lower status.
RE:BOOKS: How do you get interviews when the person says no? I never give up. I don’t take nos) Can you tell us an experience where someone said no to being interviewed, but you convinced them or their publicists into it?
Jan Wong: I usually didn’t care if I was turned down because I had so many possibilities. The Lunch With column isn’t like investigative reporting (which I’ve also done.) If they say no, I move on. But I’m still cranky at losing Martha Stewart.
RE:BOOKS: Personally, I hate press scrums. All the other journalists would use the politicians’ answers to my questions because I asked the fun and interesting ones. So, I used to become friends with spouses or bodyguards and beg them to bring the politician/celebrity over to me after the press scrum. Or I would wait on the sidelines and ask them questions as they walked out. Any thoughts on this?
Jan Wong: I detest scrums. I detest press conferences. Neither is journalism. It’s stenography. The reporters are like potted plants, designed to enhance the canned message of the powerful. I won’t attend a presser unless someone pulls out my nails.
RE:BOOKS: How would you describe your interview style? Sneakiest way you’ve ever landed an interview?
Jan Wong: It really helps to be female and a person of colour. Even in Beijing, where I was a foreign correspondent, people constantly underestimated and overlooked me. I could sneak in anywhere, including a military hospital where Chairman Mao’s grandson was being treated for obesity.
For a journalist, you don’t want anyone on high alert as you wander around poking your nose into everything.
RE:BOOKS: How do you, personally, get good quotes from boring people?
Jan Wong: I startle them with unexpected questions. Or I tell them they’re boring. That often works. But the boring downtime is a great chance to jot down descriptions and plot the next move/question. Never underestimate a breather.
RE:BOOKS: Last, what is your best advice for aspiring journalists to “stand out from the pack?” And where can we find you and your books?
Jan Wong: Work REALLY hard, fear nothing, meet your deadlines. Don’t whine. Have fun.
RE:BOOKS: Wait! Last one! What surprises you about this younger generation of aspiring journalists? Why do they want to be journalists — for fame, or are they really interested in covering the news?
Jan Wong: I took a buyout from teaching journalism in the spring of 2019. Good timing, huh?
Regarding the younger generation of aspiring journalists. I admire that they want to work in a profession where the real salaries, adjusted for inflation, have actually fallen in the last 40 years.
But journalism is critical to the lifeblood of democracy. We need you!
You can buy her six books at any bookstore or online. You can follow her on Twitter @WriterWong
Out of the Blue: a Memoir of Workplace Depression, Recovery, Redemption and Yes, Happiness is also available through her website.